Response to Moderation Concerns - Continued!
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:10 pmJust so this dies when we say it dies not when it is decided it will die - I hereby give you all the complete transcript, minus a couple of people who contributed some dribble and the freedom and liberty to really let us know how you feel! As a favor to all I cleaned up all the spelling mistakes and gramatical errors I could find.
Response to Moderation Concerns
Shawn - TriumphRat.Net has always been an "evolving" online community. Even the rules we abide by have gone through some changes to support the fundamental vision that this site started with.
For the folks who may not be aware; TriumphRat.Net is a privately-operated site. I started it many years ago with Triumph's permission, but it has no affiliation with Triumph. What you see today represents the evolution of an idea, over several years.
There is no one that is forcing the moderators to perform their efforts, and I could turn off the server at any time with very little impact. The only reason any of us are here is because we still enjoy doing this (one could say that we're still addicted). There is also no entity or organization that is dictating how TriumphRat.Net should be run, or what represents acceptable guidelines.
While the Acceptable Use Policy may not represent our personal interests or attitudes, it supports the basic idea of a site that all Triumph Enthusiasts would enjoy.
Hopefully you will continue to find this site worthwhile, but if you don't it is acceptable to share your concerns to the community. However if you are upset or emotional about an issue, consider the circumstances before sharing them online.
In a week, I'll be combining the Bonnie Owners and Vertical Twin Cruisers forums together. The Twins Hang-Out will continue for now. This change is to bring all Twin technical-related into a single place. The Twins Hang-Out is virtually the same thing as the Biker Hang-Out, but I'll continue to support it due to member requests. Two places is just as good as one I guess
At the same time, the forum that is currently called "Site Happenings" will be updated to support conversations about overall TriumphRat.Net concerns. It will become the proper place to discuss subjects like the AUP and Moderator activity.
Thanks For Contributing,
__________________
SCCTrim - I'm sorry you feel that 3 pages worth of responses in basic agreement with the topic of discussion doesn’t bring enough merit to look at what is going on here. Clearly there are ulterior motives to your decision....I wont elaborate my beliefs of them as they are only my opinion.
This is your board...and you can pull out the keys and kill it anytime you wish. But we all know you aren’t going to do that...are you.
While the Acceptable Use Policy may not represent our personal interests or attitudes, it supports the basic idea of a site that all Triumph Enthusiasts would enjoy.
Apparently all enthusiasts’ are not...... Monte PM’d me...I included both you and Mare in the reply.
I'll say it again.....I'm really disappointed.
I'm outta here....
Tbirdnz - I think Shawn's response reflects all our views, I am counting myself here as a member too, there is something for everyone in this response.
Try re-reading it again and not to pick remarks out of context.
The Site Happenings Forum to allow for site running and moderation discussions is a big plus, a chance to help evolve Ratnet and have a say on how it's run.
Sweat -
Originally Posted by Tbirdnz
I think Shawn's response reflects all our views,
Dude, you're a "super moderator"
You can't possibly count yourself with us mud people!
Tbirdnz - Oh but I do Sweat' I probably get my hands dirtier than most, I'm a farmer after all !
Bottle Fed - understand Shawn's post; I feel that we all agree that he has done a fine job with this site. However, no one is critiquing that. The majority of the members are critiquing the moderation of certain post that are not anymore offensive than prime time TV, and the lockdown/deletions of threads for no apparent reason. I also feel that the majority of us have the feeling that we are being "ruled" instead of "moderated". We all have been advised of the UAP and that this site is privately owned, so we have no freedom of speech. But sometimes expressing one's opinion is not a bad thing, when the majority of the people feel the same way.
Sometimes it pays to listen to the people.
Greg
Shawn - I appreciate everyone's feedback.
The current version of TriumphRat.Net is more automated than what I had been running previously. If someone posted something that might have been "slightly" inappropriate, there usually wasn't enough time to stop and consider it. Only the most extreme issues were usually attended to.
Now, I support the moderators with more resources, and continue to improve them. The Site Happenings Forum has details on some of the improvements, like the recent search engine change (matching most phrases again).
It is understandable that some would translate this into a Moderator's decision-making process, but all I did was enable them to be more effective.
Hope this helps,
Modre -
Quote:
Respect to the people who spend their time and energy in keeping this site going-great piece of work!
that would be the structure as well as the contributing talent...all the structure in the world doesn't mean the talent will roost.
[Dear Modre,
I understand your concern here, but issues like this deserve a little respect. The way to voice this kind of thing is to pm Shawn, and have the people who agree with you send Shawn a pm as well.
Best,
Mare]
next...
Modre -
Quote:
would prefer to see the censorship toned down
power goes to the head and swells the ears shut..resulting in an internal echo.
{Modre, me again. We - all the mods - generally agree on who, what, and where to moderate. It's more of a group process. Best, Mare}
rmak - I had to laugh at the accusations that this site is too politically correct. I believe a reality check is in order.
In my opinion, this is the most politically incorrect enterprise that I've had the pleasure to be part of in a long time. The right of an individual to start and run something that he owns in a way that he sees fit is almost unheard of in today's politically correct environment.
What usually happens today is a minority of people get offended because the person who owns the business, institution, internet site, etc. isn't doing something they like. If they wine long enough, presenting distorted views of their constitutional rights. They eventually get the attention of the media and unscrupulous lawyers who make it so unpleasant for the person who is creating a product or service that he or she is driven to change the product or service or worse, go out of business.
Thank you all who are trying to force Shawn to change something he owns. You can now join the ranks of those who make me accept Satanism as a legitimate religion and make me pay for the warning labels so some idiot doesn't stand on top of a ladder. How dare Shawn make decisions without consulting all of us!
For those of you who are making it a first amendment issue to post women's pictures on a motorcycle website please note. Internet porn is a few keystrokes away. Go there and have fun. No, instead you'd rather disregard my right to have a site I can read at work during my lunch hour and in front of my kids. And I loved the rationale that the photos weren't any worse than what you see on TV. Now we are asked to hold the crap on Television as the benchmark for what is appropriate and in good taste.
A few last points. I'd like the dude who says that a majority of people here agree that the site's policies are messed up present some statistics.
And I'd like to repeat my question asking if there was ever a topic-ABOUT MOTORCYCLES- that was handled poorly by the administrators of the site.
Skyblue62 - Like the man says
'This is a private members club, there's the rules, if you don't like them, there's the door'
Fair play to both Shawn and the Mods, without organization Anarchy will strike
Modre -
Quote:
as has already been pointed out, the philosophy of the motorcyclist is now at odds with society at large, who think we are selfish, reckless, anachronistic and ought to grow up and get a decent car. So it's not surprising that some of our number are pretty ribald and outspoken. Vive la difference!
As it's always been...
I've been building and riding for almost 50 years...it was always about motorcycles...now it's a fashion show...funny part is someone trying to climb on top of it and condemning from a position they only hold in their head.
Sad part is the answer guys don't take to the yoke well... so you end up with chrome polishers and back patters in a daisy chain...yeah.
No one discounts the work and behind the scenes Shawn brings to the table...and though I can't speak for all, we're guests in a host's house...to be treated accordingly both ways. What doesn't work is capable talent treated like children...we're not.
if this were a democratic pirate ship the vote has already been taken...we're not in full blown mutiny, but the position has been voiced...and we're all in bad humor armed to the teeth...the writing's on the wall and we're just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Dazco - Well, I’m sorry but nothing on earth is going to make me change my mind about the fact, and I say FACT because I have plenty of common sense to see that the FACT is there have been a lot of things that several mods have done which are beyond being subjective and are just wrong, period. That, contrary to what some think is a fact. So the only question that leaves is whether those incidents should have been themselves moderated by Shawn. From what I’ve seen here, mods can get away with nearly anything and nothing happens. There is one in particular who has done things that are jaw dropping enough so that a number of members have PM'd each other to say (paraphrasing) can you believe this? But they just go on and on and run around acting like a 15 year old would if given a badge. I just blow it off most of the time because i know that the rules here basically boil down to do as i say, not as I do. But at times it gets so pathetically bad it's hard to swallow.
I realize none of what I said means anything to those who haven't truly seen any of this or especially those unaffected, because one of the flaws humans have is the inability to see and understand wrong doings till it happens to them personally. But again, I do give a _______ because for a long time now I’ve just posted here out of boredom for the most part and if I weren't a member I could still read the posts. I no longer feel like part of the community and couldn't care less whether I’m banned or not. But I do believe in principals, and from what I’ve seen there are mods here who either have little of that or don't grasp it well.
Ski rat -
Originally Posted by Shawn
There is no one that is forcing the moderators to perform their efforts, and I could turn off the server at any time with very little impact. The only reason any of us are here is because we still enjoy doing this (one could say that we're still addicted). There is also no entity or organization that is dictating how TriumphRat.Net should be run, or what represents acceptable guidelines.
,
OH please Shawn - don't turn off the server, yeah like you would do that then you wouldn't have any ants in your farm. Also there is an entity that determines how this site should be run it’s called the members you know the people whom the ads are here for. This post will be deleted by a mod in 5..... 4..... 3.... 2....
King Bear - As one who has been moderated from time to time I can say that this forum has become less interesting and entertaining with stricter moderation. Like Dazco I come here for some relief from boredom, but when adults can't even have a spirited exchange of ideas about politics or post a few entertaining pics or even banter over friendly rivalries with riders of other bikes without getting slapped down, what's the point? How many threads can one read about exhaust systems or oil preferences? If it comes down to that you'll find me checking the boards once a month, not every day.
Ski Rat - remember when If I made a post and it wasn't popular it was on page two by the end of the day, now no one posts anymore because they will get banned well ......... that man! you have taken all the fun out of this so its better to be banned than be on a boring board.
rmak - Ski rat, a true rebel 1%er ton-up rocker.....or a hum drum guy with Marlon Brando delusions. We will never know. Isn't internet anonymity empowering?
Road dog -
Originally Posted by rmak
Isn't internet anonymity empowering?
Yes... especially if you're a moderator.
NewOldSchool -
Originally Posted by Ski_rat
I remember when If I made a post and it wasn't popular it was on page two by the end of the day, now no one posts anymore because they will get banned well ......... that man! you have taken all the fun out of this so its better to be banned than be on a boring board.
Ski, it’s over the top responses like that which warrant more moderation. I agree it has changed, but porn and cussing should be moderated out, IMO. There are better more respectable way to make points.
Nwraindevel - Hot chicks on bikes!
I would like to see a sticky of hot chicks on our Bonnies. Yeah baby!!! Where are all of the pictures of Hotties on Triumph Bonneville’s? Let’s do it again.
Doctorjay - What an interesting thread. I always thought the purpose of this site was entertainment and information. I get both from all the posts. I understand the squabbling about over-moderation. I like the twin talk areas and don't want to have to search all the other areas to see a thread and where it's posted. I think a little fun is completely tolerable on a site like this. I like a good, hardy laugh as much as anyone. Cheers to all Triumph lovers!!
Hiltz - Shawn and Mare have both posted replies. Perhaps Monte would like to do the same.
Loxpump - If the Twins Hangout and Biker Hangout are basically the same why do threads get moved from the THO to the BHO? I thought one was for technical issues "Owner Forum" and one for BS, Banter & Chat. Kind of like this entire thread should be in the Twins Hangout. Sometimes however we Twins owners like to talk about other issues, non tech issues, but want to talk among people we are a little more familiar with. Even though we hardly if ever meet any other members we still form a kind of kinship.
OhioTT - Good point, Lox.
Ski rat -
Originally Posted by NewOldSkool
Ski, its over the top responses like that, that warrant more moderation. I agree it has changed, but porn and cussing should be moderated out, IMO. There are better more respectable way to make points.
Stop being such a sissy
NewOldSchool -
Originally Posted by Ski_rat
stop being such a sissy
Brilliant... overwhelmed me from every angle
Thruxtonian - If the Bonnie Owners Forum is a place for Bonneville specific tech info, as presented earlier, why is this thread here? Shouldn't it be moved to Site Happenings?
Ski rat -
Originally Posted by NewOldSkool
Brilliant... overwhelmed me from every angle
Well I do have that affect on people
Ski rat -
Originally Posted by Thruxtonian
If the Bonnie Owners Forum is a place for Bonneville specific tech info, as presented earlier, why is this thread here? Shouldn't it be moved to Site Happenings?
Oh my god yes hahahahahaha
Tbirdnz -
Originally Posted by Loxpump
If the Twins Hangout and Biker Hangout are basically the same why do threads get moved from the THO to the BHO? ......
It is a good point, I think this is now not often done in recognizing by all that THO and BHO are now similar forums. I've seen very few posts moved this way and those that have, have had a link left in place on THO which directs to the new forum.
The Mods on Twin Talk have often moved 'chat' from this forum (BO) which is technical to THO which is for chat and there is a 'Sticky' in place explaining why.
....and the reason why this thread is placed here at the moment is because it is a direct post to Bonnie Owner members and as this direct post states Site Happenings will be updated to support this type of interchange in the future.
Ski rat - um yeah that doesn't answer why its here you are a mod why not move it to the site happenings?
Jimbonnie - Shawn: While you're playing around with the formatting of the website, why not put all of the new twin forums under one heading?
In other words, why not have the forums for Thruxton’s (and other cafe style new twins), Bonneville’s (and other standards) and a third for Speed Masters and Americas (and other cruisers) - all under one category such as "Twin cam Twins" or something similar.
The "Club Cafe" discussion, which centers predominately around new twin's issues, and more specifically with new twin Thruxton’s, has much more in common with Bonneville’s (and Speed Masters and Americas), than with triples, Rockets, and vintage Triumphs. Moving the three forums together would rationalize organization and make looking through the three forums much easier.
As for the other issue, that of over-moderation (hmmmm, an oxymoron), perhaps a good place to start is to make a distinction between good natured humor and personal attacks. Quipping about fish tacos in a tachometer thread is good natured humor. Deleting inoffensive thread degradation does nothing to enhance the thread or forum, and can instead be counterproductive because it makes the site less personal and because good natured criticism (like being clear about what you are asking about) raises the standard in a productive manner. The value of the website resides predominantly within the members, not the moderators.
Jojje1963 -
Originally Posted by Skyblue62
Like the man says
'This is a private members club, there's the rules, if you don't like them, there's the door'
Well, that's what's going to happen. The problem is that it might be the wrong people that leave. More than once I have wanted to answer a thread starter with the correct information, not the wild guessing that everyone feel they must post even if they don't know anything about bikes, only to find that the thread is closed..
So even if I never got moderated it's still frustrating. Sure, it's Shawn’s forum, but I'm sure he also want it to be as good as it can be. If he wanted a private club for his closest friends he would say so, wouldn't he?
I bet this thread will be closed soon. The mods will say that everyone has had their say and it's time to move on. But the people who don't spend all their time on this forum haven't even seen this thread yet.
I hope it's not closed yet, I hate to have typed all this for no reason
Bmwusa19 - You know there are plenty, probably millions, of websites, forums, discussion boards, what have you, for things like politics, porn, soft porn, naked girls on bikes, bitching, whining, crying, so if that is want you want, GO FIND THEM. Last time I typed in this URL it was for TRIUMPH RAT, pretty sure that's what it still is, some where to talk about....wait...you got it Triumph Motorcycles.
If you don't want to be censored that don't type things that are going to get you there, and if you can't refrain, don't come here.
I'm sitting in Michigan where the temperature today is 12 degrees F, all I can do is dream about riding my Bonnie in the spring and read the posts, info, pics on this site, to get me through till then.
Thanks to Shawn and the Mods for the work they do!
Out!
Old Scratcher - I love this site. I've learned heaps about my bike, met some like-minded people, & had some invigorating discussions.
Personally, I'm into free speech. However I'm also mature enough to accept that not everyone agrees with my opinions, & they have a right to use this site & not be offended.
So I've no problem with the Mods enforcing the rules (which we all agreed to when we ticked the AUP)
I do think there's a technical solution to this problem though.
If an Adults Only forum were added, where more ribald & controversial topics could be explored, that should satisfy everybody.
Personally, I log onto this site to get my M/C fix. & I satisfy my other needs & desires elsewhere (in the real world). So I probably wouldn't get much use out of such a sub-forum (yeah right!). But it sounds like it'd be well supported. & I'd just like to see what kind of anarchy we'd unleash, if we were completely un-moderated.
P.S. I don't mind the threads getting moved, if there's a link left in place. I "discovered" BHO after a thread I started got moved there. & now I lurk there as well (so be warned).
NewOldSchool -
Originally Posted by Old Scratcher
I do think there's a technical solution to this problem though.
If an Adults Only forum were added, where more ribald & controversial topics could be explored, that should satisfy everybody.
Personally, I log onto this site to get my M/C fix. & I satisfy my other needs & desires elsewhere (in the real world). So I probably wouldn't get much use out of such a sub-forum (yeah right!). But it sounds like it'd be well supported. & I'd just like to see what kind of anarchy we'd unleash, if we were completely unmoderated.
LOL that would be fun... all I can think of is "South Park goes to Hinckley". One could only imagine what "technical help" posts would be like.
Wombat -
Originally Posted by Old Scratcher
I do think there's a technical solution to this problem though.
If an Adults Only forum were added, where more ribald & controversial topics could be explored, that should satisfy everybody.
Originally Posted by bmwusa19
You know there are plenty, probably millions, of websites, forums, discussion boards, what have you, for things like politics, porn, soft porn, naked girls on bikes, bitching, whining, crying, so if that is want you want, GO FIND THEM. Last time I typed in this URL it was for TRIUMPH RAT, pretty sure that's what it still is, some where to talk about....wait...you got it Triumph Motorcycles.
There is the easy solution.
Hiltz - Best Motorcycle Web site
Scratch, Hands down the best site on the web is Adventure Rider,
http://www.advrider.com/
their ability to support the posting of gorgeous photos is second to none.
The ride report forum has developed into an art form and many of the narrative ride reports could be used to teach expository writing at the
university level. In the Face Plant forum members report on their own accidents. It's a great resource on what not to do.
My point is that advrider has a forum called Jo Momma where anything goes and where you will find the most outrageous posts, Many members never visit Jo Momma but everyone on the site knows what lurks there.
I have never seen a complaint about this forum on the site
Rmak -
Originally Posted by jojje1963
The problem is that it might be the wrong people that leave. More than once I have wanted to answer a thread starter with the correct information, not the wild guessing that everyone feels they must post even if they don't know anything about bikes, only to find that the thread is closed.
Well, jojje, I think that's a valid point. Who would leave? Since I had the day off, I took a while to call up the posts of some of the supposed outraged experts who were threatening to take their years of expertise and go. It was pretty humorous to find out that many of their posts were run of the mill opinions about normal stuff. No rocket science. This is understandable since motorcycles in general and Bonnies in particular are pretty simple machines.
Equally funny and ironic was when I called up topics about real technical subjects like polishing heads, regrinding cams, fabricating parts, etc. For the most part, the guys who are doing real complex stuff don't seem to have a dog in this fight. Check it out yourself. Use the search feature.
I'm holding back on names because I'm trying (for the most part) to do my part to keep this on the level of a discussion and not personal. That's been real hard for me, because I really felt that, no matter how you feel about Monte's work here, the comments about his religious beliefs and profession were slimy and uncalled for.
Peastick - It's the winter weather.
We're all sitting inside, looking out at the rain, and getting cabin fever. My brother and I would always end up fighting at times like that too.
It'll be spring soon.
Old Scratcher - I'm holding back on names because I'm trying (for the most part) to do my part to keep this on the level of a discussion and not personal. That's been real hard for me, because I really felt that, no matter how you feel about Monte's work here, the comments about his religious beliefs and profession were slimy and uncalled for. [/quote]
I 100% agree. There's no need to get personal here. & there's no call for cheap, inflammatory (& defamatory) statements.
I don't think that Monte is any more intrusive than any of the other Mods. & he usually explains why he's felt the need to intervene, which a lot of other Mods don't do. So you at least get the chance to argue your case, via PM's.
Personally, I think it's good that Monte's chosen to let us know, what he does & how he feels about things. It makes it easier for me to censor myself, as I just have to think "Would I say this to a Preacher?"
Now while a lot of folk are going to fume about this place not being a church. The truth is that it is a public forum, & those of us who aren't easily offended, have no right to offend those that are.
So a bit of manners, decorum, & above all else, respect will go a long way to rectifying this problem.
Ohiorider -
Originally Posted by rmak
............no matter how you feel about Monte's work here, the comments about his religious beliefs and profession were slimy and uncalled for.
I found that those comments bothered me, too. I consider Monte a friend and riding buddy that I've met through this site, and could only imagine how those comments must have stung.
Baltobonneville - I like this site, I appreciate what Shawn and the moderators do, and I don't take offense at being slapped down every now and then if I step out of line.
Road dog - I agree with rmak and Ohiorider. Personal attacks on Monte are not what this thread is about. IMO Monte is a good guy and deserves a lot more respect than that.
The problem seems to be that the twins section has become a focal point for several moderators and "super" moderators. If Monte and Mare were left to do their jobs, we might not all be complaining.
RonD - I think political correctness has gone mad in the world, with this forum my opinion is there needs to be a balance if people are held under the thumb to much it will kill a good site, my comments are not directed at Monte, he is a good bloke and well respected and he is doing a great job, its just that were from all different walks of life here some of us are not as pure as others, so why not have a site that has something for everyone after all that’s what makes this site entertaining..
Loxpump - I like the idea of having an adult’s only area. I believe it would quickly become a popular place for some. It would certainly contain what is impossible to completely "police"; Even visited by some of those that are so easily offended by it.
Tbirdnz - Monte does a lot of considerate work around the site which goes unseen most of the time, nor does he act unilaterally, seeking advice from other Mods before acting in many situations. He has always had the forums and members best interests at heart, nor has he disparaged any members, the derogatory remarks about him were entirely uncalled for.
On another point about thread closures, I have never seen issues about bike discussions closed. The threads that do get closed are those which develop into rants, become abusive and deliberately divisive. Some of these particularly on BHO have been allowed to run a little longer than normal after reminders have been posted to tone the rhetoric down, then closed when it continued.
On the subject of topics that tend to get edited, some of you may not be aware of the amendments in the AUP clarifying religious and political issues. The following is an excerpt from the AUP: Religious - Some of us could be described as either faithful or devout, but posts that turn Religion into an inflammatory issue are not allowed.
. Negative Political Bias - Posts that advertise, promote, condone the views of others, or encourage inflammatory responses are not encouraged.
There is a lot of scope there for a sensible discussion, for those who want to delve deeper into such debate there are other sites that cater for it.
Loxpump –
Religious - Some of us could be described as either faithful or devout, but posts that turn Religion into an inflammatory issue are not allowed.
Negative Political Bias - Posts that advertise, promote, condone the views of others, or encourage inflammatory responses are not encouraged.
I don't think I've ever read a post that "directly" violated either one of those, but it sure leaves a lot of room for moderators to interpret how they wish. However this all turns out I still like this site, totally enjoy everyone’s company and have learned a lot here. One thing for sure not everyone will agree or be happy how it turns out.
Oregonthruxton -
Originally Posted by nwraindevel
I would like to see a sticky of hot chicks on our Bonnies. Yeah baby!!! Where are all of the pictures of Hotties on Triumph Bonneville’s? Let’s do it again.
BonneLass comes to mind...
S3Girl - Adults only section would keep more people happy.
Normandy - I agree that the site membership is the true value of this site. People move on for a variety of reasons so why not entice good members to stay and encourage less desirable characters to move on, great. Moderators are required for this ugly task but being a long term member, I can clearly see that over moderating is indeed taking place. With the current "crop" of members perhaps it is justified ?
I'll be honest; I'm here for tech info, parts opportunities and mod ideas and in between if there are interesting goings on or babes on bikes done in good taste I'm in. But lets face it folks, the tech topics have been reduced to nil and something had to take their place.
Norm
Kframe - An "adult" section may or may not help.
Many of the images *wink wink* that would probably be posted in an adult forum are protected by copyright laws, and so Shawn/The Mods would have to censor/delete/moderate those threads too.
I don't think an adult section on this site is the right track, as previously mentioned anyone with Google can find more porn than you could ever want, but an "Off Topic" section for non-motorcycling discussion should exist and should be without moderation unless personal attacks are being made.
Shrug, -K
Bottle Fed -
Originally Posted by rmak
A few last points. I'd like the dude who says that a majority of people here agree that the site's policies are messed up present some statistics.
rmak, if you are going to quote me, quote me directly and not what you interpret
I said "The majority of the members are critiquing the moderation of certain post that are not anymore offensive than prime time TV, and the lockdown/deletions of threads for no apparent reason.
I also feel that the majority of us have the feeling that we are being "ruled" instead of "moderated". We all have been advised of the UAP and that this site is privately owned, so we have no freedom of speech. But sometimes expressing one's opinion is not a bad thing, when the majority of the people feel the same way." I never stated that the sites policies are messed up, did I? As far as statistics go, there are many people that are unhappy that threads are being closed or deleted for no apparent reason. Perhaps they were off topic?
And your right, TV shouldn't be a basis for argument, how about using your nearest beach, swimming pool, or your kid’s science/biology books to be used for example. Step off my nuts, I thought I was being civil
I got a pm one time from a super mod telling me not to Properly Title a Thread, to title it in all lower case. What is that? Where is that in the AUP, it's not, it's personal preference.
Rmak -
Originally Posted by Bottle_Fed
I also feel that the majority of us have the feeling that we are being "ruled" instead of "moderated".
If you feel misquoted I apologize. I don't feel I was being uncivil, just giving my opinion like you are. My point is still valid. You can't "feel" a majority having a "feeling. If you're acting as a spokesperson for a majority about anything you should be able to validate it somehow.
My read on this whole thread is that it's a discussion on what's appropriate. Here's a news flash: people in bathing suits who are swimming are appropriately dressed for that setting, not necessarily for a corporate office, going to a movie or possibly not here. That's what we're talking about.
Since I'm working at a school, I'll check the biology books tomorrow for semi-clad, provocatively posed females and get back to you. If I see any, I'll concede the point.
Mikeinva - hey would this work instead of deleting a post can you just boot the guys that are causing the trouble? If a post is going good why move it what dose it mater?
I don’t think we need x rated porn on this forum ,but what’s wrong with a pretty girl dressed sexy long as she’s not showing any more then she would walking down the street?
Monte is ok in my book ,I think he is trying to do the best job he can ,maybe what needs looking at is what the job should be ,only Shawn can say that, I think most of us try to help everyone on here, We are lucky as far as mods go to have some of the best people in the world with our bikes that will help us like j. If we run the guys in the know off what will we have and to do it over some dumb stuff like has happened lately is plain crazy Guys lets all work together we got a great thing here. If both sides can meet in the middle will be better for everyone.
Bottle Fed -
Originally Posted by rmak
If you feel misquoted I apologize. I don't feel I was being uncivil, just giving my opinion like you are. My point is still valid. You can't "feel" a majority having a "feeling. If you're acting as a spokesperson for a majority about anything you should be able to validate it somehow.
My read on this whole thread is that it's a discussion on what's appropriate. Here's a news flash: people in bathing suits who are swimming are appropriately dressed for that setting, not necessarily for a corporate office, going to a movie or possibly not here. That's what we're talking about.
Since I'm working at a school, I'll check the biology books tomorrow for semi-clad, provocatively posed females and get back to you. If I see any, I'll concede the point.
As far as your "free speech" canard, read up on the constitution and subsequent rulings. You will find that the First Amendment does not generally apply to private entities.
The proof is in the posts. More senior members than I am have recognized the change. Perhaps the others are just biting their tongues. Personally I have had very few problems, except for a few personal preferences of a certain super mod.
Maybe you misunderstood my free speech statement, I am in touch with that, really, and understand completely. Please don't preach the constitution to me, you may get embarrassed.
You have to look in the anatomy section of the science books, unless you are in the sear's catalog, then it's under the bra and panties section
SCCTrim - ...1 example of how a forum is properly moderated
http://www.triumphrat.net/triumph-tw...s-hangout.html
Compare the above link to recent happenings.
...there is no comparison.
JEnfield - Hey Shawn Nice Job with the web site will stop by from time to time but see ya around. Hey Wombat I changed my Signature to keep the piece but I just looked and the Hillary Voldermort in 08 signature that was also on the site is still on, a certain members posts thanks for being fair. I understand trust me I am not liked here it’s okay but fair is fair no matter who you are and if the AUP is good for me then its good for everyone. And yes it does offend me it really does really Anyone but Hillary.
Jimmy
rmak -
Originally Posted by Bottle_Fed
Please don't preach the constitution to me, you may get embarrassed.
We certainly wouldn't want that to happen, would we!
Bottle, if you can end with a joke and a big smiley icon, I should take a lesson from that. I hate preachy people and I hate when I get that way, so it's time I self-edit, watch a little crappy TV and call it a night.
I just noticed that there are a bunch of new topics about motorcycles. Maybe there will be something interesting to read tomorrow....
BonnevilleBilly - If any body else started this thread it would of been deleted on the first page.
I am also part of that majority.
I find my self spending less and less time here because it is more of a forum for
a Sunday school for 12 year olds then it is a motorcycle forum.
The censorship on here has got ridicules.
And for you guys who feel offended because some post with a pic of a nice looking babe on a bike,
where are you from? Where do you ride your bike in Disney world.
Go to any bike event or show and you will see nice looking babes on a bike.
I tried to speak my mind on this whole subject and it got deleted in less then 5 minutes.
Bill
Loxpump - A face with a name.
A link to an old thread in the THO, it just reminded me back when things were different.
http://www.triumphrat.net/triumph-tw...post+your+mugs
D9 - This is a great website.
Sincere thanks to Shawn and all participants... moderators... lurkers... whoever you are and whatever you're doing, looking at, enjoying or learning here.
Some recent purely subjective impressions regarding moderation...
How, when, and by whom a post or thread is moderated has everything to do with what happens afterward - this includes the expectation of a reasonable explanation and justification by a moderator or super moderator for actions taken, whether the explanation is requested or not - and should involve more than a smiley emoticon and a "read the AUP." Anything less IMO may well result in a slow and corrosive alienation among participants.
Any sense whatsoever that religious orientation has played a part in any act of moderation is deeply alienating to me and I suspect to others here as well. IMO images or language beyond PG13 has no place here, but nor does any religious agenda - if any such orientation or agenda does exist here, perhaps it should be plainly stated FTR - in the AUP. Alternatively, perhaps there should be language in the AUP which states otherwise.
Back to the PG13 reference...
Shawn - To answer the suggestions about a "adults" area on Rat.Net.
The concept has been considered, several times, but websites are profiled in a basic way. Both corporate/enterprise web content filtering solutions and consumer parental-control alternatives either allow or block websites on a basic yes/no rule. So if one part of TriumphRat.Net had language not suitable for children 13-21years, or not allowed in a corporate environment, then the entire site is usually blocked. We have a significant number of both teenage and work-environment users.
I've also tested the UserGroup concept on one of my other motorcycle-forum sites. It has a 18year-age minimum. The concept involved manually allowing members access, via a semi-automated request system, to a private forum. The idea was sound, but that particular site didn't see the benefit (they changed their policy to something closer to Rat.Net).
I own other domain names that would be suitable for starting new forums with 21-year age minimums. So far, the concept hasn't gained much support on Rat.Net, which is Ok. In general I've learned that folks either like/dislike a community, or don't want to feel "pushed" elsewhere for any reason. My plan is to move forward with the idea, after some other priorities.
Hope this helps,
Gallowglass - Normally I post in another part of this site but occasionally I lurk here to see what twin owners think about their bikes and find out what I may have in common with them (I want a Bonnie).
This thread is surprising to me; there are other forums within the site where the moderators allow off topic discussions and allow personal opinion without the need for their interference.
Now I haven't read the personal attacks that are referred to in this thread and I do think that this forum is definitely not the place for such an attack nor for references to porn or advertisements.
But I am a responsible adult (note the word responsible)I take responsibility for my own opinion, language use and thoughts. I certainly don't need nor appreciate someone else dictating what I view or discuss with other responsible adults in a site that exists primarily for the benefit of its members. And I don't need someone else to tell me what I find offensive.
As someone else here said; if it may offend you don't read it or view it. Exercise some control over your own life; if you don/t like a TV program turn it off, don't like the movie walk out, don't like a book or food or product then don't go there BUT don't tell me what I am supposed to like.
The moderators and Shawn in particular do a lot of work to keep this site running but I remind them that it won't run if others are not allowed to contribute.
In my opinion you should edit out personal attacks, advertisements and the like.
Other than that - Get over it
Old Scratcher - I've been wondering why such an important & wide-ranging topic has been posted (buried?) in the Bonnie Forum, which is supposed to be for tech discussions about Hinkley Twins.
Are we retro guys especially difficult to deal with, or something?
It must be something to do with Triumph identifying Cranky Old Coots as a target demographic for the Bonnie.
Or is it that you value the mature outlook of us retro-riders?
& you're using us as a brains-trust/sounding-board, to work out the future direction of this site.
Well I can see the sense of such reasoning.
& I'm flattered to be included in such lofty company.
But don't you think the rest of the Rat community should have some say in this discussion?
Tbirdnz - Well you are probably correct OS, but the moans started in this forum and are being directly addressed here, but you will notice that Site Happenings is being updated to allow this across the site as an ongoing input.
Cafecruzin –
moderator
noun [C]
1 (US USUALLY mediator) FORMAL someone who tries to help other people come to an agreement:
An independent moderator should be appointed to oversee the negotiations.
2 US someone who makes certain that a formal discussion happens without problems and follows the rules:
He challenged the president to a series of TV debates. Just the two of them, with no moderator.
3 UK SPECIALIZED someone who makes certain that all the people marking an exam use the same standards:
The final marks awarded for coursework will depend upon the moderator.
censor
noun [C]
a person whose job is to read books, watch films, etc. in order to remove anything offensive from them, or who reads private letters, especially sent during war or from prison, to remove parts considered unsuitable
Brooksie - I also go the 675.com and there is a lot of things about that site that I find typical with internet blogs. This site is the bench mark for how a well monitored, friendly and informative site should be run. I rarely see folks get nasty and never see offensive graphics. While I know just to grin and bare it with other sites, it's a very good community here. Thanks for your efforts.
Haggis95 - "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
Let's start thinking about riding and stop yapping so much.
Whitehurst - Well, we have had the first deleted post on this posting...
BishRat - Wasn't one of the recurring points recently that it's better the individual post be deleted rather than the entire thread? I don't want to comment other than that because I don't know what the post was.
Drewdesign007 - We are worse than girls...
Wombat - FYI, the posts that were deleted were a post that was nothing more than a personal attack on another member and those subsequent posts that either quoted or referred to it. Discussion is one thing but personal attacks will not be tolerated.
Midliferider - Hey Shawn, this site represents the best of the internet experience. A group of like minded individuals, with a common interest, in a great brand of motorcycle. Another best of the internet aspect is the point that we are individuals not sheep. We're allowed to express our concerns and opinions. I don't jump up and down on the sofa here on any regular schedule but I truly appreciate you time and efforts here and have done so for around five years. Simple. Keep up your good work. And the contributors here have provided the best help, solutions and riding tips that have kept the biking experience the most fun a person can have under the law.
No complaints here and thanks to all the Triumph owners who have taken personal time to offer me your fine knowledge.
Bill rad - Best web experience
I have found this site to be one of the most useful virtual communities that I have visited and long may it continue. It must be a great deal of work and I commend the great OZ behind the site. With issues of taste and cultural difference no one is going to agree all the time across so many global locations so what say we put this behind us. Someone has to moderate and I vote that he continue as long as he's willing, this type of time wasting must be suggesting to him that it's not worth it.... Most of us appreciate your efforts.
D9 - Several suggestions have been made regarding more freewheeling content - one idea which I've seen in place on other forums, is to have a certain section of the forum where thread participation is by invitation only or where one must request admission first prior to entering, and perhaps acknowledge by checkbox the willful entrance into - a less moderated (but not completely un-moderated) area.
I have questioned in the past, and will continue to observe and question - and respond where and when I'm compelled - to what I find to be heavy handed or wholesale thread delection by moderators or super moderators, where I believe a more restrained or post-specific response would have done just as well or better.
Again, thanks to all participants.
Cheers,
D9
Skint - I wondered how long it would take before I read a post by Dazco about it. the man who waits till there is no other alternative has finally spoken.
Shawn, don't sit there all high and mighty and threaten to do something stupid....like shut off the server. You know Fucking good and well you won't do it.
Better sites are growing, and those in the know of these machines are moving away from here. Buy your trinkets from the advertisers here...but don't expect them to get you home....
Good luck to you...
Doc
Skint - You can line up behind the rest of the robots and blow Shawn.....
Bmwusa19 - I certainly hope not to see any more posts by Skint anywhere on this site, if he hates so much!
Mattrat -
Originally Posted by bmwusa19
I certainly hope not to see any more posts by Sknit anywhere on this site, if he hates so much!
You really don't know him or anything about him, having joined less than a month ago, so why don't you take your personal attacks elsewhere.
D9 -
Originally Posted by Skint
i wondered how long it woudl take before I read a post by Dazco about it. the man who waits till there is no other alternative has finally spoken.
Shawn, don't sit there all high and mighty and threaten to do something stupid....like shut off the server. You know **** good and well you won't do it.
Better sites are growing, and those in the know of these machines are moving away from here. Buy your trinkets from the advertisers here...but don't expect them to get you home....
Good luck to you...
Doc
Doc, as a long-time participant, DIY'er and more recently an advertiser - I've never considered myself a purveyor of trinkets... here or anywhere else.
I'm compelled to respectfully ask that you clarify - for myself and other advertisers, customers & participants here - your comment "Buy your trinkets from the advertisers here...but don't expect them to get you home"
Cheers,
D9
Finally – Shawn - We've discussed this topic as far as it should go.
Unless something was missed, we've edited/deleted anything that was a personal attack or highly inappropriate for TriumphRat.Net. The only exception being negative comments against myself. It's not because I possess a "thick skin", but felt it was necessary for all members to see the various thoughts of those who participate here - at whatever level.
I appreciate the supportive comments. Although some of the feedback in this thread is disturbing and represents misunderstood concepts, there are a few occasions when this discussion is necessary.
Thanks for contributing,
Response to Moderation Concerns
Shawn - TriumphRat.Net has always been an "evolving" online community. Even the rules we abide by have gone through some changes to support the fundamental vision that this site started with.
For the folks who may not be aware; TriumphRat.Net is a privately-operated site. I started it many years ago with Triumph's permission, but it has no affiliation with Triumph. What you see today represents the evolution of an idea, over several years.
There is no one that is forcing the moderators to perform their efforts, and I could turn off the server at any time with very little impact. The only reason any of us are here is because we still enjoy doing this (one could say that we're still addicted). There is also no entity or organization that is dictating how TriumphRat.Net should be run, or what represents acceptable guidelines.
While the Acceptable Use Policy may not represent our personal interests or attitudes, it supports the basic idea of a site that all Triumph Enthusiasts would enjoy.
Hopefully you will continue to find this site worthwhile, but if you don't it is acceptable to share your concerns to the community. However if you are upset or emotional about an issue, consider the circumstances before sharing them online.
In a week, I'll be combining the Bonnie Owners and Vertical Twin Cruisers forums together. The Twins Hang-Out will continue for now. This change is to bring all Twin technical-related into a single place. The Twins Hang-Out is virtually the same thing as the Biker Hang-Out, but I'll continue to support it due to member requests. Two places is just as good as one I guess
At the same time, the forum that is currently called "Site Happenings" will be updated to support conversations about overall TriumphRat.Net concerns. It will become the proper place to discuss subjects like the AUP and Moderator activity.
Thanks For Contributing,
__________________
SCCTrim - I'm sorry you feel that 3 pages worth of responses in basic agreement with the topic of discussion doesn’t bring enough merit to look at what is going on here. Clearly there are ulterior motives to your decision....I wont elaborate my beliefs of them as they are only my opinion.
This is your board...and you can pull out the keys and kill it anytime you wish. But we all know you aren’t going to do that...are you.
While the Acceptable Use Policy may not represent our personal interests or attitudes, it supports the basic idea of a site that all Triumph Enthusiasts would enjoy.
Apparently all enthusiasts’ are not...... Monte PM’d me...I included both you and Mare in the reply.
I'll say it again.....I'm really disappointed.
I'm outta here....
Tbirdnz - I think Shawn's response reflects all our views, I am counting myself here as a member too, there is something for everyone in this response.
Try re-reading it again and not to pick remarks out of context.
The Site Happenings Forum to allow for site running and moderation discussions is a big plus, a chance to help evolve Ratnet and have a say on how it's run.
Sweat -
Originally Posted by Tbirdnz
I think Shawn's response reflects all our views,
Dude, you're a "super moderator"
You can't possibly count yourself with us mud people!
Tbirdnz - Oh but I do Sweat' I probably get my hands dirtier than most, I'm a farmer after all !
Bottle Fed - understand Shawn's post; I feel that we all agree that he has done a fine job with this site. However, no one is critiquing that. The majority of the members are critiquing the moderation of certain post that are not anymore offensive than prime time TV, and the lockdown/deletions of threads for no apparent reason. I also feel that the majority of us have the feeling that we are being "ruled" instead of "moderated". We all have been advised of the UAP and that this site is privately owned, so we have no freedom of speech. But sometimes expressing one's opinion is not a bad thing, when the majority of the people feel the same way.
Sometimes it pays to listen to the people.
Greg
Shawn - I appreciate everyone's feedback.
The current version of TriumphRat.Net is more automated than what I had been running previously. If someone posted something that might have been "slightly" inappropriate, there usually wasn't enough time to stop and consider it. Only the most extreme issues were usually attended to.
Now, I support the moderators with more resources, and continue to improve them. The Site Happenings Forum has details on some of the improvements, like the recent search engine change (matching most phrases again).
It is understandable that some would translate this into a Moderator's decision-making process, but all I did was enable them to be more effective.
Hope this helps,
Modre -
Quote:
Respect to the people who spend their time and energy in keeping this site going-great piece of work!
that would be the structure as well as the contributing talent...all the structure in the world doesn't mean the talent will roost.
[Dear Modre,
I understand your concern here, but issues like this deserve a little respect. The way to voice this kind of thing is to pm Shawn, and have the people who agree with you send Shawn a pm as well.
Best,
Mare]
next...
Modre -
Quote:
would prefer to see the censorship toned down
power goes to the head and swells the ears shut..resulting in an internal echo.
{Modre, me again. We - all the mods - generally agree on who, what, and where to moderate. It's more of a group process. Best, Mare}
rmak - I had to laugh at the accusations that this site is too politically correct. I believe a reality check is in order.
In my opinion, this is the most politically incorrect enterprise that I've had the pleasure to be part of in a long time. The right of an individual to start and run something that he owns in a way that he sees fit is almost unheard of in today's politically correct environment.
What usually happens today is a minority of people get offended because the person who owns the business, institution, internet site, etc. isn't doing something they like. If they wine long enough, presenting distorted views of their constitutional rights. They eventually get the attention of the media and unscrupulous lawyers who make it so unpleasant for the person who is creating a product or service that he or she is driven to change the product or service or worse, go out of business.
Thank you all who are trying to force Shawn to change something he owns. You can now join the ranks of those who make me accept Satanism as a legitimate religion and make me pay for the warning labels so some idiot doesn't stand on top of a ladder. How dare Shawn make decisions without consulting all of us!
For those of you who are making it a first amendment issue to post women's pictures on a motorcycle website please note. Internet porn is a few keystrokes away. Go there and have fun. No, instead you'd rather disregard my right to have a site I can read at work during my lunch hour and in front of my kids. And I loved the rationale that the photos weren't any worse than what you see on TV. Now we are asked to hold the crap on Television as the benchmark for what is appropriate and in good taste.
A few last points. I'd like the dude who says that a majority of people here agree that the site's policies are messed up present some statistics.
And I'd like to repeat my question asking if there was ever a topic-ABOUT MOTORCYCLES- that was handled poorly by the administrators of the site.
Skyblue62 - Like the man says
'This is a private members club, there's the rules, if you don't like them, there's the door'
Fair play to both Shawn and the Mods, without organization Anarchy will strike
Modre -
Quote:
as has already been pointed out, the philosophy of the motorcyclist is now at odds with society at large, who think we are selfish, reckless, anachronistic and ought to grow up and get a decent car. So it's not surprising that some of our number are pretty ribald and outspoken. Vive la difference!
As it's always been...
I've been building and riding for almost 50 years...it was always about motorcycles...now it's a fashion show...funny part is someone trying to climb on top of it and condemning from a position they only hold in their head.
Sad part is the answer guys don't take to the yoke well... so you end up with chrome polishers and back patters in a daisy chain...yeah.
No one discounts the work and behind the scenes Shawn brings to the table...and though I can't speak for all, we're guests in a host's house...to be treated accordingly both ways. What doesn't work is capable talent treated like children...we're not.
if this were a democratic pirate ship the vote has already been taken...we're not in full blown mutiny, but the position has been voiced...and we're all in bad humor armed to the teeth...the writing's on the wall and we're just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Dazco - Well, I’m sorry but nothing on earth is going to make me change my mind about the fact, and I say FACT because I have plenty of common sense to see that the FACT is there have been a lot of things that several mods have done which are beyond being subjective and are just wrong, period. That, contrary to what some think is a fact. So the only question that leaves is whether those incidents should have been themselves moderated by Shawn. From what I’ve seen here, mods can get away with nearly anything and nothing happens. There is one in particular who has done things that are jaw dropping enough so that a number of members have PM'd each other to say (paraphrasing) can you believe this? But they just go on and on and run around acting like a 15 year old would if given a badge. I just blow it off most of the time because i know that the rules here basically boil down to do as i say, not as I do. But at times it gets so pathetically bad it's hard to swallow.
I realize none of what I said means anything to those who haven't truly seen any of this or especially those unaffected, because one of the flaws humans have is the inability to see and understand wrong doings till it happens to them personally. But again, I do give a _______ because for a long time now I’ve just posted here out of boredom for the most part and if I weren't a member I could still read the posts. I no longer feel like part of the community and couldn't care less whether I’m banned or not. But I do believe in principals, and from what I’ve seen there are mods here who either have little of that or don't grasp it well.
Ski rat -
Originally Posted by Shawn
There is no one that is forcing the moderators to perform their efforts, and I could turn off the server at any time with very little impact. The only reason any of us are here is because we still enjoy doing this (one could say that we're still addicted). There is also no entity or organization that is dictating how TriumphRat.Net should be run, or what represents acceptable guidelines.
,
OH please Shawn - don't turn off the server, yeah like you would do that then you wouldn't have any ants in your farm. Also there is an entity that determines how this site should be run it’s called the members you know the people whom the ads are here for. This post will be deleted by a mod in 5..... 4..... 3.... 2....
King Bear - As one who has been moderated from time to time I can say that this forum has become less interesting and entertaining with stricter moderation. Like Dazco I come here for some relief from boredom, but when adults can't even have a spirited exchange of ideas about politics or post a few entertaining pics or even banter over friendly rivalries with riders of other bikes without getting slapped down, what's the point? How many threads can one read about exhaust systems or oil preferences? If it comes down to that you'll find me checking the boards once a month, not every day.
Ski Rat - remember when If I made a post and it wasn't popular it was on page two by the end of the day, now no one posts anymore because they will get banned well ......... that man! you have taken all the fun out of this so its better to be banned than be on a boring board.
rmak - Ski rat, a true rebel 1%er ton-up rocker.....or a hum drum guy with Marlon Brando delusions. We will never know. Isn't internet anonymity empowering?
Road dog -
Originally Posted by rmak
Isn't internet anonymity empowering?
Yes... especially if you're a moderator.
NewOldSchool -
Originally Posted by Ski_rat
I remember when If I made a post and it wasn't popular it was on page two by the end of the day, now no one posts anymore because they will get banned well ......... that man! you have taken all the fun out of this so its better to be banned than be on a boring board.
Ski, it’s over the top responses like that which warrant more moderation. I agree it has changed, but porn and cussing should be moderated out, IMO. There are better more respectable way to make points.
Nwraindevel - Hot chicks on bikes!
I would like to see a sticky of hot chicks on our Bonnies. Yeah baby!!! Where are all of the pictures of Hotties on Triumph Bonneville’s? Let’s do it again.
Doctorjay - What an interesting thread. I always thought the purpose of this site was entertainment and information. I get both from all the posts. I understand the squabbling about over-moderation. I like the twin talk areas and don't want to have to search all the other areas to see a thread and where it's posted. I think a little fun is completely tolerable on a site like this. I like a good, hardy laugh as much as anyone. Cheers to all Triumph lovers!!
Hiltz - Shawn and Mare have both posted replies. Perhaps Monte would like to do the same.
Loxpump - If the Twins Hangout and Biker Hangout are basically the same why do threads get moved from the THO to the BHO? I thought one was for technical issues "Owner Forum" and one for BS, Banter & Chat. Kind of like this entire thread should be in the Twins Hangout. Sometimes however we Twins owners like to talk about other issues, non tech issues, but want to talk among people we are a little more familiar with. Even though we hardly if ever meet any other members we still form a kind of kinship.
OhioTT - Good point, Lox.
Ski rat -
Originally Posted by NewOldSkool
Ski, its over the top responses like that, that warrant more moderation. I agree it has changed, but porn and cussing should be moderated out, IMO. There are better more respectable way to make points.
Stop being such a sissy
NewOldSchool -
Originally Posted by Ski_rat
stop being such a sissy
Brilliant... overwhelmed me from every angle
Thruxtonian - If the Bonnie Owners Forum is a place for Bonneville specific tech info, as presented earlier, why is this thread here? Shouldn't it be moved to Site Happenings?
Ski rat -
Originally Posted by NewOldSkool
Brilliant... overwhelmed me from every angle
Well I do have that affect on people
Ski rat -
Originally Posted by Thruxtonian
If the Bonnie Owners Forum is a place for Bonneville specific tech info, as presented earlier, why is this thread here? Shouldn't it be moved to Site Happenings?
Oh my god yes hahahahahaha
Tbirdnz -
Originally Posted by Loxpump
If the Twins Hangout and Biker Hangout are basically the same why do threads get moved from the THO to the BHO? ......
It is a good point, I think this is now not often done in recognizing by all that THO and BHO are now similar forums. I've seen very few posts moved this way and those that have, have had a link left in place on THO which directs to the new forum.
The Mods on Twin Talk have often moved 'chat' from this forum (BO) which is technical to THO which is for chat and there is a 'Sticky' in place explaining why.
....and the reason why this thread is placed here at the moment is because it is a direct post to Bonnie Owner members and as this direct post states Site Happenings will be updated to support this type of interchange in the future.
Ski rat - um yeah that doesn't answer why its here you are a mod why not move it to the site happenings?
Jimbonnie - Shawn: While you're playing around with the formatting of the website, why not put all of the new twin forums under one heading?
In other words, why not have the forums for Thruxton’s (and other cafe style new twins), Bonneville’s (and other standards) and a third for Speed Masters and Americas (and other cruisers) - all under one category such as "Twin cam Twins" or something similar.
The "Club Cafe" discussion, which centers predominately around new twin's issues, and more specifically with new twin Thruxton’s, has much more in common with Bonneville’s (and Speed Masters and Americas), than with triples, Rockets, and vintage Triumphs. Moving the three forums together would rationalize organization and make looking through the three forums much easier.
As for the other issue, that of over-moderation (hmmmm, an oxymoron), perhaps a good place to start is to make a distinction between good natured humor and personal attacks. Quipping about fish tacos in a tachometer thread is good natured humor. Deleting inoffensive thread degradation does nothing to enhance the thread or forum, and can instead be counterproductive because it makes the site less personal and because good natured criticism (like being clear about what you are asking about) raises the standard in a productive manner. The value of the website resides predominantly within the members, not the moderators.
Jojje1963 -
Originally Posted by Skyblue62
Like the man says
'This is a private members club, there's the rules, if you don't like them, there's the door'
Well, that's what's going to happen. The problem is that it might be the wrong people that leave. More than once I have wanted to answer a thread starter with the correct information, not the wild guessing that everyone feel they must post even if they don't know anything about bikes, only to find that the thread is closed..
So even if I never got moderated it's still frustrating. Sure, it's Shawn’s forum, but I'm sure he also want it to be as good as it can be. If he wanted a private club for his closest friends he would say so, wouldn't he?
I bet this thread will be closed soon. The mods will say that everyone has had their say and it's time to move on. But the people who don't spend all their time on this forum haven't even seen this thread yet.
I hope it's not closed yet, I hate to have typed all this for no reason
Bmwusa19 - You know there are plenty, probably millions, of websites, forums, discussion boards, what have you, for things like politics, porn, soft porn, naked girls on bikes, bitching, whining, crying, so if that is want you want, GO FIND THEM. Last time I typed in this URL it was for TRIUMPH RAT, pretty sure that's what it still is, some where to talk about....wait...you got it Triumph Motorcycles.
If you don't want to be censored that don't type things that are going to get you there, and if you can't refrain, don't come here.
I'm sitting in Michigan where the temperature today is 12 degrees F, all I can do is dream about riding my Bonnie in the spring and read the posts, info, pics on this site, to get me through till then.
Thanks to Shawn and the Mods for the work they do!
Out!
Old Scratcher - I love this site. I've learned heaps about my bike, met some like-minded people, & had some invigorating discussions.
Personally, I'm into free speech. However I'm also mature enough to accept that not everyone agrees with my opinions, & they have a right to use this site & not be offended.
So I've no problem with the Mods enforcing the rules (which we all agreed to when we ticked the AUP)
I do think there's a technical solution to this problem though.
If an Adults Only forum were added, where more ribald & controversial topics could be explored, that should satisfy everybody.
Personally, I log onto this site to get my M/C fix. & I satisfy my other needs & desires elsewhere (in the real world). So I probably wouldn't get much use out of such a sub-forum (yeah right!). But it sounds like it'd be well supported. & I'd just like to see what kind of anarchy we'd unleash, if we were completely un-moderated.
P.S. I don't mind the threads getting moved, if there's a link left in place. I "discovered" BHO after a thread I started got moved there. & now I lurk there as well (so be warned).
NewOldSchool -
Originally Posted by Old Scratcher
I do think there's a technical solution to this problem though.
If an Adults Only forum were added, where more ribald & controversial topics could be explored, that should satisfy everybody.
Personally, I log onto this site to get my M/C fix. & I satisfy my other needs & desires elsewhere (in the real world). So I probably wouldn't get much use out of such a sub-forum (yeah right!). But it sounds like it'd be well supported. & I'd just like to see what kind of anarchy we'd unleash, if we were completely unmoderated.
LOL that would be fun... all I can think of is "South Park goes to Hinckley". One could only imagine what "technical help" posts would be like.
Wombat -
Originally Posted by Old Scratcher
I do think there's a technical solution to this problem though.
If an Adults Only forum were added, where more ribald & controversial topics could be explored, that should satisfy everybody.
Originally Posted by bmwusa19
You know there are plenty, probably millions, of websites, forums, discussion boards, what have you, for things like politics, porn, soft porn, naked girls on bikes, bitching, whining, crying, so if that is want you want, GO FIND THEM. Last time I typed in this URL it was for TRIUMPH RAT, pretty sure that's what it still is, some where to talk about....wait...you got it Triumph Motorcycles.
There is the easy solution.
Hiltz - Best Motorcycle Web site
Scratch, Hands down the best site on the web is Adventure Rider,
http://www.advrider.com/
their ability to support the posting of gorgeous photos is second to none.
The ride report forum has developed into an art form and many of the narrative ride reports could be used to teach expository writing at the
university level. In the Face Plant forum members report on their own accidents. It's a great resource on what not to do.
My point is that advrider has a forum called Jo Momma where anything goes and where you will find the most outrageous posts, Many members never visit Jo Momma but everyone on the site knows what lurks there.
I have never seen a complaint about this forum on the site
Rmak -
Originally Posted by jojje1963
The problem is that it might be the wrong people that leave. More than once I have wanted to answer a thread starter with the correct information, not the wild guessing that everyone feels they must post even if they don't know anything about bikes, only to find that the thread is closed.
Well, jojje, I think that's a valid point. Who would leave? Since I had the day off, I took a while to call up the posts of some of the supposed outraged experts who were threatening to take their years of expertise and go. It was pretty humorous to find out that many of their posts were run of the mill opinions about normal stuff. No rocket science. This is understandable since motorcycles in general and Bonnies in particular are pretty simple machines.
Equally funny and ironic was when I called up topics about real technical subjects like polishing heads, regrinding cams, fabricating parts, etc. For the most part, the guys who are doing real complex stuff don't seem to have a dog in this fight. Check it out yourself. Use the search feature.
I'm holding back on names because I'm trying (for the most part) to do my part to keep this on the level of a discussion and not personal. That's been real hard for me, because I really felt that, no matter how you feel about Monte's work here, the comments about his religious beliefs and profession were slimy and uncalled for.
Peastick - It's the winter weather.
We're all sitting inside, looking out at the rain, and getting cabin fever. My brother and I would always end up fighting at times like that too.
It'll be spring soon.
Old Scratcher - I'm holding back on names because I'm trying (for the most part) to do my part to keep this on the level of a discussion and not personal. That's been real hard for me, because I really felt that, no matter how you feel about Monte's work here, the comments about his religious beliefs and profession were slimy and uncalled for. [/quote]
I 100% agree. There's no need to get personal here. & there's no call for cheap, inflammatory (& defamatory) statements.
I don't think that Monte is any more intrusive than any of the other Mods. & he usually explains why he's felt the need to intervene, which a lot of other Mods don't do. So you at least get the chance to argue your case, via PM's.
Personally, I think it's good that Monte's chosen to let us know, what he does & how he feels about things. It makes it easier for me to censor myself, as I just have to think "Would I say this to a Preacher?"
Now while a lot of folk are going to fume about this place not being a church. The truth is that it is a public forum, & those of us who aren't easily offended, have no right to offend those that are.
So a bit of manners, decorum, & above all else, respect will go a long way to rectifying this problem.
Ohiorider -
Originally Posted by rmak
............no matter how you feel about Monte's work here, the comments about his religious beliefs and profession were slimy and uncalled for.
I found that those comments bothered me, too. I consider Monte a friend and riding buddy that I've met through this site, and could only imagine how those comments must have stung.
Baltobonneville - I like this site, I appreciate what Shawn and the moderators do, and I don't take offense at being slapped down every now and then if I step out of line.
Road dog - I agree with rmak and Ohiorider. Personal attacks on Monte are not what this thread is about. IMO Monte is a good guy and deserves a lot more respect than that.
The problem seems to be that the twins section has become a focal point for several moderators and "super" moderators. If Monte and Mare were left to do their jobs, we might not all be complaining.
RonD - I think political correctness has gone mad in the world, with this forum my opinion is there needs to be a balance if people are held under the thumb to much it will kill a good site, my comments are not directed at Monte, he is a good bloke and well respected and he is doing a great job, its just that were from all different walks of life here some of us are not as pure as others, so why not have a site that has something for everyone after all that’s what makes this site entertaining..
Loxpump - I like the idea of having an adult’s only area. I believe it would quickly become a popular place for some. It would certainly contain what is impossible to completely "police"; Even visited by some of those that are so easily offended by it.
Tbirdnz - Monte does a lot of considerate work around the site which goes unseen most of the time, nor does he act unilaterally, seeking advice from other Mods before acting in many situations. He has always had the forums and members best interests at heart, nor has he disparaged any members, the derogatory remarks about him were entirely uncalled for.
On another point about thread closures, I have never seen issues about bike discussions closed. The threads that do get closed are those which develop into rants, become abusive and deliberately divisive. Some of these particularly on BHO have been allowed to run a little longer than normal after reminders have been posted to tone the rhetoric down, then closed when it continued.
On the subject of topics that tend to get edited, some of you may not be aware of the amendments in the AUP clarifying religious and political issues. The following is an excerpt from the AUP: Religious - Some of us could be described as either faithful or devout, but posts that turn Religion into an inflammatory issue are not allowed.
. Negative Political Bias - Posts that advertise, promote, condone the views of others, or encourage inflammatory responses are not encouraged.
There is a lot of scope there for a sensible discussion, for those who want to delve deeper into such debate there are other sites that cater for it.
Loxpump –
Religious - Some of us could be described as either faithful or devout, but posts that turn Religion into an inflammatory issue are not allowed.
Negative Political Bias - Posts that advertise, promote, condone the views of others, or encourage inflammatory responses are not encouraged.
I don't think I've ever read a post that "directly" violated either one of those, but it sure leaves a lot of room for moderators to interpret how they wish. However this all turns out I still like this site, totally enjoy everyone’s company and have learned a lot here. One thing for sure not everyone will agree or be happy how it turns out.
Oregonthruxton -
Originally Posted by nwraindevel
I would like to see a sticky of hot chicks on our Bonnies. Yeah baby!!! Where are all of the pictures of Hotties on Triumph Bonneville’s? Let’s do it again.
BonneLass comes to mind...
S3Girl - Adults only section would keep more people happy.
Normandy - I agree that the site membership is the true value of this site. People move on for a variety of reasons so why not entice good members to stay and encourage less desirable characters to move on, great. Moderators are required for this ugly task but being a long term member, I can clearly see that over moderating is indeed taking place. With the current "crop" of members perhaps it is justified ?
I'll be honest; I'm here for tech info, parts opportunities and mod ideas and in between if there are interesting goings on or babes on bikes done in good taste I'm in. But lets face it folks, the tech topics have been reduced to nil and something had to take their place.
Norm
Kframe - An "adult" section may or may not help.
Many of the images *wink wink* that would probably be posted in an adult forum are protected by copyright laws, and so Shawn/The Mods would have to censor/delete/moderate those threads too.
I don't think an adult section on this site is the right track, as previously mentioned anyone with Google can find more porn than you could ever want, but an "Off Topic" section for non-motorcycling discussion should exist and should be without moderation unless personal attacks are being made.
Shrug, -K
Bottle Fed -
Originally Posted by rmak
A few last points. I'd like the dude who says that a majority of people here agree that the site's policies are messed up present some statistics.
rmak, if you are going to quote me, quote me directly and not what you interpret
I said "The majority of the members are critiquing the moderation of certain post that are not anymore offensive than prime time TV, and the lockdown/deletions of threads for no apparent reason.
I also feel that the majority of us have the feeling that we are being "ruled" instead of "moderated". We all have been advised of the UAP and that this site is privately owned, so we have no freedom of speech. But sometimes expressing one's opinion is not a bad thing, when the majority of the people feel the same way." I never stated that the sites policies are messed up, did I? As far as statistics go, there are many people that are unhappy that threads are being closed or deleted for no apparent reason. Perhaps they were off topic?
And your right, TV shouldn't be a basis for argument, how about using your nearest beach, swimming pool, or your kid’s science/biology books to be used for example. Step off my nuts, I thought I was being civil
I got a pm one time from a super mod telling me not to Properly Title a Thread, to title it in all lower case. What is that? Where is that in the AUP, it's not, it's personal preference.
Rmak -
Originally Posted by Bottle_Fed
I also feel that the majority of us have the feeling that we are being "ruled" instead of "moderated".
If you feel misquoted I apologize. I don't feel I was being uncivil, just giving my opinion like you are. My point is still valid. You can't "feel" a majority having a "feeling. If you're acting as a spokesperson for a majority about anything you should be able to validate it somehow.
My read on this whole thread is that it's a discussion on what's appropriate. Here's a news flash: people in bathing suits who are swimming are appropriately dressed for that setting, not necessarily for a corporate office, going to a movie or possibly not here. That's what we're talking about.
Since I'm working at a school, I'll check the biology books tomorrow for semi-clad, provocatively posed females and get back to you. If I see any, I'll concede the point.
Mikeinva - hey would this work instead of deleting a post can you just boot the guys that are causing the trouble? If a post is going good why move it what dose it mater?
I don’t think we need x rated porn on this forum ,but what’s wrong with a pretty girl dressed sexy long as she’s not showing any more then she would walking down the street?
Monte is ok in my book ,I think he is trying to do the best job he can ,maybe what needs looking at is what the job should be ,only Shawn can say that, I think most of us try to help everyone on here, We are lucky as far as mods go to have some of the best people in the world with our bikes that will help us like j. If we run the guys in the know off what will we have and to do it over some dumb stuff like has happened lately is plain crazy Guys lets all work together we got a great thing here. If both sides can meet in the middle will be better for everyone.
Bottle Fed -
Originally Posted by rmak
If you feel misquoted I apologize. I don't feel I was being uncivil, just giving my opinion like you are. My point is still valid. You can't "feel" a majority having a "feeling. If you're acting as a spokesperson for a majority about anything you should be able to validate it somehow.
My read on this whole thread is that it's a discussion on what's appropriate. Here's a news flash: people in bathing suits who are swimming are appropriately dressed for that setting, not necessarily for a corporate office, going to a movie or possibly not here. That's what we're talking about.
Since I'm working at a school, I'll check the biology books tomorrow for semi-clad, provocatively posed females and get back to you. If I see any, I'll concede the point.
As far as your "free speech" canard, read up on the constitution and subsequent rulings. You will find that the First Amendment does not generally apply to private entities.
The proof is in the posts. More senior members than I am have recognized the change. Perhaps the others are just biting their tongues. Personally I have had very few problems, except for a few personal preferences of a certain super mod.
Maybe you misunderstood my free speech statement, I am in touch with that, really, and understand completely. Please don't preach the constitution to me, you may get embarrassed.
You have to look in the anatomy section of the science books, unless you are in the sear's catalog, then it's under the bra and panties section
SCCTrim - ...1 example of how a forum is properly moderated
http://www.triumphrat.net/triumph-tw...s-hangout.html
Compare the above link to recent happenings.
...there is no comparison.
JEnfield - Hey Shawn Nice Job with the web site will stop by from time to time but see ya around. Hey Wombat I changed my Signature to keep the piece but I just looked and the Hillary Voldermort in 08 signature that was also on the site is still on, a certain members posts thanks for being fair. I understand trust me I am not liked here it’s okay but fair is fair no matter who you are and if the AUP is good for me then its good for everyone. And yes it does offend me it really does really Anyone but Hillary.
Jimmy
rmak -
Originally Posted by Bottle_Fed
Please don't preach the constitution to me, you may get embarrassed.
We certainly wouldn't want that to happen, would we!
Bottle, if you can end with a joke and a big smiley icon, I should take a lesson from that. I hate preachy people and I hate when I get that way, so it's time I self-edit, watch a little crappy TV and call it a night.
I just noticed that there are a bunch of new topics about motorcycles. Maybe there will be something interesting to read tomorrow....
BonnevilleBilly - If any body else started this thread it would of been deleted on the first page.
I am also part of that majority.
I find my self spending less and less time here because it is more of a forum for
a Sunday school for 12 year olds then it is a motorcycle forum.
The censorship on here has got ridicules.
And for you guys who feel offended because some post with a pic of a nice looking babe on a bike,
where are you from? Where do you ride your bike in Disney world.
Go to any bike event or show and you will see nice looking babes on a bike.
I tried to speak my mind on this whole subject and it got deleted in less then 5 minutes.
Bill
Loxpump - A face with a name.
A link to an old thread in the THO, it just reminded me back when things were different.
http://www.triumphrat.net/triumph-tw...post+your+mugs
D9 - This is a great website.
Sincere thanks to Shawn and all participants... moderators... lurkers... whoever you are and whatever you're doing, looking at, enjoying or learning here.
Some recent purely subjective impressions regarding moderation...
How, when, and by whom a post or thread is moderated has everything to do with what happens afterward - this includes the expectation of a reasonable explanation and justification by a moderator or super moderator for actions taken, whether the explanation is requested or not - and should involve more than a smiley emoticon and a "read the AUP." Anything less IMO may well result in a slow and corrosive alienation among participants.
Any sense whatsoever that religious orientation has played a part in any act of moderation is deeply alienating to me and I suspect to others here as well. IMO images or language beyond PG13 has no place here, but nor does any religious agenda - if any such orientation or agenda does exist here, perhaps it should be plainly stated FTR - in the AUP. Alternatively, perhaps there should be language in the AUP which states otherwise.
Back to the PG13 reference...
Shawn - To answer the suggestions about a "adults" area on Rat.Net.
The concept has been considered, several times, but websites are profiled in a basic way. Both corporate/enterprise web content filtering solutions and consumer parental-control alternatives either allow or block websites on a basic yes/no rule. So if one part of TriumphRat.Net had language not suitable for children 13-21years, or not allowed in a corporate environment, then the entire site is usually blocked. We have a significant number of both teenage and work-environment users.
I've also tested the UserGroup concept on one of my other motorcycle-forum sites. It has a 18year-age minimum. The concept involved manually allowing members access, via a semi-automated request system, to a private forum. The idea was sound, but that particular site didn't see the benefit (they changed their policy to something closer to Rat.Net).
I own other domain names that would be suitable for starting new forums with 21-year age minimums. So far, the concept hasn't gained much support on Rat.Net, which is Ok. In general I've learned that folks either like/dislike a community, or don't want to feel "pushed" elsewhere for any reason. My plan is to move forward with the idea, after some other priorities.
Hope this helps,
Gallowglass - Normally I post in another part of this site but occasionally I lurk here to see what twin owners think about their bikes and find out what I may have in common with them (I want a Bonnie).
This thread is surprising to me; there are other forums within the site where the moderators allow off topic discussions and allow personal opinion without the need for their interference.
Now I haven't read the personal attacks that are referred to in this thread and I do think that this forum is definitely not the place for such an attack nor for references to porn or advertisements.
But I am a responsible adult (note the word responsible)I take responsibility for my own opinion, language use and thoughts. I certainly don't need nor appreciate someone else dictating what I view or discuss with other responsible adults in a site that exists primarily for the benefit of its members. And I don't need someone else to tell me what I find offensive.
As someone else here said; if it may offend you don't read it or view it. Exercise some control over your own life; if you don/t like a TV program turn it off, don't like the movie walk out, don't like a book or food or product then don't go there BUT don't tell me what I am supposed to like.
The moderators and Shawn in particular do a lot of work to keep this site running but I remind them that it won't run if others are not allowed to contribute.
In my opinion you should edit out personal attacks, advertisements and the like.
Other than that - Get over it
Old Scratcher - I've been wondering why such an important & wide-ranging topic has been posted (buried?) in the Bonnie Forum, which is supposed to be for tech discussions about Hinkley Twins.
Are we retro guys especially difficult to deal with, or something?
It must be something to do with Triumph identifying Cranky Old Coots as a target demographic for the Bonnie.
Or is it that you value the mature outlook of us retro-riders?
& you're using us as a brains-trust/sounding-board, to work out the future direction of this site.
Well I can see the sense of such reasoning.
& I'm flattered to be included in such lofty company.
But don't you think the rest of the Rat community should have some say in this discussion?
Tbirdnz - Well you are probably correct OS, but the moans started in this forum and are being directly addressed here, but you will notice that Site Happenings is being updated to allow this across the site as an ongoing input.
Cafecruzin –
moderator
noun [C]
1 (US USUALLY mediator) FORMAL someone who tries to help other people come to an agreement:
An independent moderator should be appointed to oversee the negotiations.
2 US someone who makes certain that a formal discussion happens without problems and follows the rules:
He challenged the president to a series of TV debates. Just the two of them, with no moderator.
3 UK SPECIALIZED someone who makes certain that all the people marking an exam use the same standards:
The final marks awarded for coursework will depend upon the moderator.
censor
noun [C]
a person whose job is to read books, watch films, etc. in order to remove anything offensive from them, or who reads private letters, especially sent during war or from prison, to remove parts considered unsuitable
Brooksie - I also go the 675.com and there is a lot of things about that site that I find typical with internet blogs. This site is the bench mark for how a well monitored, friendly and informative site should be run. I rarely see folks get nasty and never see offensive graphics. While I know just to grin and bare it with other sites, it's a very good community here. Thanks for your efforts.
Haggis95 - "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
Let's start thinking about riding and stop yapping so much.
Whitehurst - Well, we have had the first deleted post on this posting...
BishRat - Wasn't one of the recurring points recently that it's better the individual post be deleted rather than the entire thread? I don't want to comment other than that because I don't know what the post was.
Drewdesign007 - We are worse than girls...
Wombat - FYI, the posts that were deleted were a post that was nothing more than a personal attack on another member and those subsequent posts that either quoted or referred to it. Discussion is one thing but personal attacks will not be tolerated.
Midliferider - Hey Shawn, this site represents the best of the internet experience. A group of like minded individuals, with a common interest, in a great brand of motorcycle. Another best of the internet aspect is the point that we are individuals not sheep. We're allowed to express our concerns and opinions. I don't jump up and down on the sofa here on any regular schedule but I truly appreciate you time and efforts here and have done so for around five years. Simple. Keep up your good work. And the contributors here have provided the best help, solutions and riding tips that have kept the biking experience the most fun a person can have under the law.
No complaints here and thanks to all the Triumph owners who have taken personal time to offer me your fine knowledge.
Bill rad - Best web experience
I have found this site to be one of the most useful virtual communities that I have visited and long may it continue. It must be a great deal of work and I commend the great OZ behind the site. With issues of taste and cultural difference no one is going to agree all the time across so many global locations so what say we put this behind us. Someone has to moderate and I vote that he continue as long as he's willing, this type of time wasting must be suggesting to him that it's not worth it.... Most of us appreciate your efforts.
D9 - Several suggestions have been made regarding more freewheeling content - one idea which I've seen in place on other forums, is to have a certain section of the forum where thread participation is by invitation only or where one must request admission first prior to entering, and perhaps acknowledge by checkbox the willful entrance into - a less moderated (but not completely un-moderated) area.
I have questioned in the past, and will continue to observe and question - and respond where and when I'm compelled - to what I find to be heavy handed or wholesale thread delection by moderators or super moderators, where I believe a more restrained or post-specific response would have done just as well or better.
Again, thanks to all participants.
Cheers,
D9
Skint - I wondered how long it would take before I read a post by Dazco about it. the man who waits till there is no other alternative has finally spoken.
Shawn, don't sit there all high and mighty and threaten to do something stupid....like shut off the server. You know Fucking good and well you won't do it.
Better sites are growing, and those in the know of these machines are moving away from here. Buy your trinkets from the advertisers here...but don't expect them to get you home....
Good luck to you...
Doc
Skint - You can line up behind the rest of the robots and blow Shawn.....
Bmwusa19 - I certainly hope not to see any more posts by Skint anywhere on this site, if he hates so much!
Mattrat -
Originally Posted by bmwusa19
I certainly hope not to see any more posts by Sknit anywhere on this site, if he hates so much!
You really don't know him or anything about him, having joined less than a month ago, so why don't you take your personal attacks elsewhere.
D9 -
Originally Posted by Skint
i wondered how long it woudl take before I read a post by Dazco about it. the man who waits till there is no other alternative has finally spoken.
Shawn, don't sit there all high and mighty and threaten to do something stupid....like shut off the server. You know **** good and well you won't do it.
Better sites are growing, and those in the know of these machines are moving away from here. Buy your trinkets from the advertisers here...but don't expect them to get you home....
Good luck to you...
Doc
Doc, as a long-time participant, DIY'er and more recently an advertiser - I've never considered myself a purveyor of trinkets... here or anywhere else.
I'm compelled to respectfully ask that you clarify - for myself and other advertisers, customers & participants here - your comment "Buy your trinkets from the advertisers here...but don't expect them to get you home"
Cheers,
D9
Finally – Shawn - We've discussed this topic as far as it should go.
Unless something was missed, we've edited/deleted anything that was a personal attack or highly inappropriate for TriumphRat.Net. The only exception being negative comments against myself. It's not because I possess a "thick skin", but felt it was necessary for all members to see the various thoughts of those who participate here - at whatever level.
I appreciate the supportive comments. Although some of the feedback in this thread is disturbing and represents misunderstood concepts, there are a few occasions when this discussion is necessary.
Thanks for contributing,
